Black Stooges,

[Eponymous]

(I've missed all you guys)

Here's a question that came up on the forum at discogs and I would love to hear your thoughts.

On Melvins' 2002 album Hostile Ambient Takeover, the titles of the first two tracks are causing some confusion. Here are the facts:

* Hostile Ambient Takeover starts with two tracks: Track 1, which is short (:31) and Track 2, which is long (5:58). (Track 1 is generally regarded as an intro to the latter)

* One of these is called Black Stooges, the other is not given a title

There are two possibilities:
A) The intro is "Black Stooges" and the long track is untitled
B) The intro is untitled and the long track is "Black Stooges"

Discogs and Musicbrainz have generally followed Case A, while Wikipedia and RateYourMusic have followed Case B.
After looking into things, I believed strongly enough in Case A that I edited the releases in the database. I should've made this forum post first, but didn't. My bad, I'm new at this. Hopefully we can work together to come to a good conclusion here.

The case for Case A:
* The tracklists on the CD and vinyl editions start as follows:
1. Black Stooges
3. Dr. Geek
This strongly indicates that the first track is Black Stooges and the second track does not have a title
* Ipecac's 2016 digital release of the album lists the first track as "Black Stooges" and the second track as "(Untitled)". This is true on Spotify, Amazon Music, Deezer, Soundcloud, and Bandcamp. (But not Apple Music for some reason)

The case for Case B:
* A promo copy of the album lists the second track as "Black Stooges" and the first track as "Intro"
* The 7" single release of the long track is titled Black Stooges. According to this guy, this release only contains the long track and not the intro
* When appearing on live albums, the long track is called "Black Stooges" on Melvins vs. Minneapolis and The End, and is called "Ol' Black Stooges" on Millenium Monsterwork
* As mentioned above, the long track is called Black Stooges on Apple Music

Since some of these facts contradict each other, assumptions have to be made when considering each case.

Case A (long track untitled) has to assume that:
1) The promo CD is wrong (This kind of thing does happen from time to time)
2) The two tracks were conceived as parts of a whole (Like the tracks on The Maggot), and "Black Stooges" in a way refers to both tracks, which is why the 7" single is called Black Stooges
3) The long track is referred to as "Black Stooges" in live setlists to avoid confusion

Case B (short track untitled) has to assume that:
1) When Ipecac released the album digitally, they mixed up the titles of the first two tracks and in seven years have never corrected it
2) Either:
a) All the physical tracklists are extremely complicated for no reason. "1 - Black Stooges" would have to imply that track 1 is not called Black Stooges, and is instead the intro to track 2, which is "Black Stooges", but track 1 is still labeled "Black Stooges" because the two tracks are part of a whole and the two tracks combine to form the complete Black Stooges, like the tracks on The Maggot. (But instead of both tracks having the same name like the tracks on The Maggot, track 1 is untitled for some reason)
OR
b) Every physical album's tracklist is wrong

I believe strongly in Case A, that the intro is "Black Stooges" and the long song is untitled. I find it very easy to believe that the band chose not to title the song (probably as a joke) back in 2002, but changed their minds later on and started calling it Black Stooges because that made more sense. While digital tracklists can occasionally have errors, I think Ipecac or the band would've noticed there was an error after 7 years and counting. (My guess for the Apple Music discrepancy is that someone working there manually changed it because they believe in Case B.
I'm not ruling out Case B entirely, but you have to jump through so many hoops to conclude that this tracklist means track 1 isn't called Black Stooges that I just find it incredibly implausible. The 7" single having a title is a pretty solid argument though.

If I've missed some important context, let me know. Again, sorry for editing everything before posting here, but I feel pretty strongly about this one.

[))))((((]

I've long wondered about this too. I've always believed that the intro AND the song are BOTH titled Black Stooges. That it's essentially one track which just split Dale's drum intro into a separate track. That makes the most sense to me.

[vince furnier]

Melvins Topic. 


https://youtu.be/boGMc9j6Mrs


https://youtu.be/HoTMrzSuKBs

[Eponymous]

I've long wondered about this too. I've always believed that the intro AND the song are BOTH titled Black Stooges. That it's essentially one track which just split Dale's drum intro into a separate track. That makes the most sense to me.

I agree with you, but it's contradicted by the track listing on Bandcamp: https://melvinsofficial.bandcamp.com/album/hostile-ambient-takeover?t=7

[PepsiMike]

Technically you're right. But most people will understand that when someone says 'black stooges', they're talking about both parts.

[))))((((]

I agree with you, but it's contradicted by the track listing on Bandcamp

Yes, i've noticed that before. With things like that i'm not so trusting with them. For instance we can fairly safely assume Buzz or Dale didn't personally upload the album to Bandcamp or type out the tracklist. So i'm always a bit skeptical with things like that. The same even goes for titles on records!! I mean that is the same situation really. A band may hand in the tracklist but then a label fuck it up and no one notices or cares.

[Eponymous]

Indeed. I imagine Buzz would thing we are crazy for even talking about it.

[dead mike]

I always thought it was a weird choice to start this song, this album, with a nondescript drum track that feels like it accidentally got dropped into the masters. It's like, "Oh, we're just fucking around, nothing to see here," and then -- BANG! -- the greatest record you will ever hear punches right between the eyes.

[PepsiMike]

I always thought it was a weird choice to start this song, this album, with a nondescript drum track that feels like it accidentally got dropped into the masters. It's like, "Oh, we're just fucking around, nothing to see here," and then -- BANG! -- the greatest record you will ever hear punches right between the eyes.

[amazonAMAZON]

It's case B. The long song, track 2, is titled "Black Stooges" as evidenced by Millenium Monsterwork and MLVNS vs MPLS

The drum beat on track 1 is a spare beat from a different song on the album, I forget which.

The confusion is obviously intentional. Melvins being Melvins.

Discogs should also mention the secret track, "Lizardus," which is dropped somewhere in the second half. Not sure if that's an official title. But since it's the only lyric it'll have to do.

[))))((((]

It's case B. The long song, track 2, is titled "Black Stooges" as evidenced by Millenium Monsterwork and MLVNS vs MPLS

I think it is interesting that it is titled Ol' Black Stooges on Monsterwork. Especially since all the other Melvins songs they cover don't have altered titles.

The confusion is obviously intentional. Melvins being Melvins.

That's mainly been the big thing i have always took from it. A bit like '1 Fuck You' and 'Fuck You' on Working With God.

[PepsiMike]

It's case B. The long song, track 2, is titled "Black Stooges" as evidenced by Millenium Monsterwork and MLVNS vs MPLS

The drum beat on track 1 is a spare beat from a different song on the album, I forget which.

Peculiar reasoning, because MPLS was put out by Amrep and burlesque (not Melvins directly), and millennium lists it as 'ol' black stooges'.

[amazonAMAZON]

How about the 7" then? I think that's evidence enough. Ipecac release of the time.

I think they called it "Ol' Black Stooges" on Millennium also with a sense of humor. The song must've titled as a mashup of Black Flag and The Stooges. (or perhaps Black Sabbath) but together they conjure this image of some minstrel performers.

[PepsiMike]

The 7" doesn't list the name.
Check the back of the cd, see what it says. Check the back of the LP, see what it says. Check the Melvins bandcamp page (melvins run).