themelvins.net bbs

......and do you care?
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Melvins&album= (http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Melvins&album=)

http://productionadvice.co.uk/youtube-loudness/ (http://productionadvice.co.uk/youtube-loudness/)

Youtube has moved to loudness normalization, and now it's easier for everybody to hear and hopefully understand that making music as loud as possible actually makes it smaller compared to music with more dynamic range. 

There is a ceiling and nowhere to go but squashed.  Music is NO FUN when treated like commercials.  I think everybody can hear and feel the effect of music with a relatively large dynamic range, even if they are ignorant to the reasons why. 

Guh. Mixing everything in the red is awful. They got the radio going 24/7 with a mix of bro metal, bro country, and class ic rock in a 7/5/1 ratio. Every time a Skynyrd song comes on they dime is so it can be heard over the cacophony then Tobey Keith's newest date rape country jam comes on and it peels the paint off the walls.

ASA is definitely the loudest album they have.

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.com/topic/19406090/Is-Youtube-Ending-The-Loudness-Wars#.VQxs6Bg8KrU (http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.com/topic/19406090/Is-Youtube-Ending-The-Loudness-Wars#.VQxs6Bg8KrU)

Here's a discussion on Terry Manning's excellent Pro Recording Workshop forum about the YouTube change. 

Btw, among a life of Top Shelf music accomplishments, Mr. Manning is responsible for the perfect edit between ZZ Top's Waiting for the Bus/Jesus Just Left Chicago. 

IMO all of the Melvins albums (on CD) sound great. Stoner Witch & aSA are slightly brickwalled though. You know how you tell? Play the CD on a stock vehicle stereo, the Tom Waits test. That's how he checks to see if his CDs are mastered right. If you have to turn the bass 1 notch down past mid-point for it to sound good, then it's brickwalled. Simple as that.

I'll take jacking up the bass on "Bullhead" or Karp's "s/t" any day over bass/low end clipping where you have to turn it down for it to sound right.

I love the tape saturation you can get on cassette recording nosey stuff but other than that I think recording in the red just fucking sucks. I'm tall so I need plenty of head room. I wonder what Hold It In comes in at? It's funny that Bullhead is perfect and that's the album people bitch the most about for it being too quite (myself included).

I find it quite fun to turn up Jesus Lizard's Goat record which sounds amazing, but it is annoying having to turn it back down when something else comes on after.

I think the issue is not only loudness but how it is mixed too. Personally I think Melvins best is Stoner Witch whether it is maxed or not. No album can touch that in terms of recording and drum,vocals, bass and guitar placement. Even the wine glass sounds amazing on that record. I think the studio gear on that must've had a pretty big budget and access to high end equipment...even after 20 years of modern advancement Melvins records do not sound that good.

I find that Secret Chiefs 3 also mix their work very well. Their live album (Billy Anderson I believe) is one of the best live recordings I've heard. Oh and California too is sublime.

There was a time when Music was actually made by people playing instruments.

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 21, 2015, 12:14:21 PM
There was a time when Music was actually made by people playing instruments.

In lab coats?   :o

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 20, 2015, 08:04:20 PM
It's funny that Bullhead is perfect and that's the album people bitch the most about for it being too quite (myself included).

It's only quiet relative to the music around it.  Bullhead breathes, and its dynamic range is a big reason why that record is still completely captivating and has so much depth to the image. 

Recently listened to Houdini again on my car stereo and was impressed how well it sounded.  The sound level is quality.

Quote from: (the) Razor on March 20, 2015, 08:06:07 PM
Personally I think Melvins best is Stoner Witch whether it is maxed or not. No album can touch that in terms of recording and drum,vocals, bass and guitar placement. Even the wine glass sounds amazing on that record. I think the studio gear on that must've had a pretty big budget and access to high end equipment...even after 20 years of modern advancement Melvins records do not sound that good.

Quote from: (the) Razor on March 20, 2015, 08:06:07 PM
I think the studio gear on that must've had a pretty big budget and access to high end equipment...even after 20 years of modern advancement Melvins records do not sound that good.

A&M, one of the world's great studios.  Add to that Garth Richardson and Joe Barresi and you've got a good chance for great sound.  I bothered Mark D before a County Bucks show and he mentioned that Mr. Barresi was most responsible for the sonics of Stoner Witch. 

Quote from: Rusty Shackleford on March 21, 2015, 01:41:33 PM

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 20, 2015, 08:04:20 PM
It's funny that Bullhead is perfect and that's the album people bitch the most about for it being too quite (myself included).

It's only quiet relative to the music around it.  Bullhead breathes, and its dynamic range is a big reason why that record is still completely captivating and has so much depth to the image.

Exactly. It's only when played in a shuffle with other music that it gets to me. Everything else is so loud! Bullhead on it's own though, when you can crank it on a decent stereo is exactly "captivating". It has and will probably always be my top Melvins record.

I don't wanna get off topic but one of those Stoner Witch type albums for me that imo is recorded well and sounds amazing is the first QOTSA album. I have a buddy who's an engineer and he always uses that album to A/B his mixes.
I agree though that regardless of it's apparent lack of dynamic range Stoner Witch is one of the best sounding albums out there.

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 21, 2015, 11:12:29 PM
I don't wanna get off topic but one of those Stoner Witch type albums for me that imo is recorded well and sounds amazing is the first QOTSA album.

Joe Barresi made the first Qotsa album too. 

Quote from: Rusty Shackleford on March 22, 2015, 03:30:43 AM

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 21, 2015, 11:12:29 PM
I don't wanna get off topic but one of those Stoner Witch type albums for me that imo is recorded well and sounds amazing is the first QOTSA album.

Joe Barresi made the first Qotsa album too.

Ha! Well there ya go! I did not know that. Makes total sense now.

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 22, 2015, 08:27:52 AM

Quote from: Rusty Shackleford on March 22, 2015, 03:30:43 AM

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 21, 2015, 11:12:29 PM
I don't wanna get off topic but one of those Stoner Witch type albums for me that imo is recorded well and sounds amazing is the first QOTSA album.

Joe Barresi made the first Qotsa album too.

Ha! Well there ya go! I did not know that. Makes total sense now.

I hadn't been listening to that one very much anymore, but when I saw
Josh on Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations (cable show)
they were playing that album exclusively (probably because it's an indie release).
Set against the high desert of SoCal, it never sounded better.
Great fucking album!

I have to question if this album is really up to snuff.

They said 13 sounds fine by their standard but every reviewer cried foul at Rubin for brickwalling.

Quote from: Captain CoryCory on March 22, 2015, 01:20:53 PM
They said 13 sounds fine by their standard but every reviewer cried foul at Rubin for brickwalling.

That's Rubin's m.o., to make everything as loud as possible at every stage of the process.  That style of production certainly gets attention, but to me it's not beneficial to real music lovers.  There are stories from engineers on his projects about how he'd show up to listen to a mix and his only demand would be to make everything louder.  Something has to give when one does that, and the thing to give is usually the listener's ears and long-term interest. 

Look, Digital itself is harsh and COLD and a lot of people dont *get it* when we are talking about LISTENING FATIGUE!!!

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE THE REAL FOCUS!

I can listen to Cassettes and LPs from the 70s for Days on end and its nice and warm...I listen to about 4 CDs at work a night at ANY VOLUME! and thats enough for my brain right there, more than that is punishing myself.



LISTENING FATIGUE!

amen. hallelujah, brother!  :o

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 23, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
Look, Digital itself is harsh and COLD and a lot of people dont *get it* when we are talking about LISTENING FATIGUE!!!

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE THE REAL FOCUS!

I can listen to Cassettes and LPs from the 70s for Days on end and its nice and warm...I listen to about 4 CDs at work a night at ANY VOLUME! and thats enough for my brain right there, more than that is punishing myself.



LISTENING FATIGUE!

I call bullshit. It's in your head. You're convinced that digital sucks and analog doesn't when in fact these days there's really no difference. It's subjective. Whatever you decide to sound better your head is gonna agree regardless if there really is a difference or not. The only argument there's to be had is that analog provides full spectrum where as digital does not. Those frequencies are ones that we can't hear although our brain can. Some say the reason analog sounds better is because we're hearing the frequencies that can't be heard on a digital recording. In turn when we listen to digital our brains may get "angry" due to the lack of full spectrum sound. Although I think that's kinda bullshit too. I think that in reality the only reason digital sound bothers you is because you told yourself it does. Using new techniques and processing, I don't believe for a second that someone can tell the difference aside from the noise caused by analog recording.

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 24, 2015, 06:17:51 PM

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 23, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
Look, Digital itself is harsh and COLD and a lot of people dont *get it* when we are talking about LISTENING FATIGUE!!!

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE THE REAL FOCUS!

I can listen to Cassettes and LPs from the 70s for Days on end and its nice and warm...I listen to about 4 CDs at work a night at ANY VOLUME! and thats enough for my brain right there, more than that is punishing myself.



LISTENING FATIGUE!

I call bullshit. It's in your head. You're convinced that digital sucks and analog doesn't when in fact these days there's really no difference. It's subjective. Whatever you decide to sound better your head is gonna agree regardless if there really is a difference or not. The only argument there's to be had is that analog provides full spectrum where as digital does not. Those frequencies are ones that we can't hear although our brain can. Some say the reason analog sounds better is because we're hearing the frequencies that can't be heard on a digital recording. In turn when we listen to digital our brains may get "angry" due to the lack of full spectrum sound. Although I think that's kinda bullshit too. I think that in reality the only reason digital sound bothers you is because you told yourself it does. Using new techniques and processing, I don't believe for a second that someone can tell the difference aside from the noise caused by analog recording.

I agree.  I distinctively remember buying plenty of cds over the years and never felt fatigue.  I remember experiencing a ton of joy when I first bought A Senile Animal on cd and listened to it about 20 times in one day.

Yeah, I think a blind test would be hard to tell. You can tell the difference between 192kbs mp3 and a CD on a decent stereo but I never heard the difference between FLAC and 320kbs on a blind test. I'd wager vinyl and flac in abx test would possibly be audible but then again the formats are usually mastered differently anyway without brickwalling which might play a role in the listening fatigue.

I think tapes and vinyl obviously have an amazing physical textile and emotional nostalgic attachments to ot that you cannot and will never ever get with streaming or mp3s. I love the convenience of a Google Music stream account too, but there is no doubt that digital does cheapen music.

I always buy Melvin's though. Subscribed to them for life!

This is the thing I just can't buy into over at the Tapeheads forum. Tens of thousands of guys, talking like this. I love cassettes. I'm hip to vinyl. But there's definitely some groupthink going on. Are most  CD versions of albums just engineered and/ or produced in a hideous fashion? Yes. Is music itself a total loss, if analogue production is completely behind us? No.

wow, Ok...Wow...

Thanks, makes me feel really good that You tell me im full of shit.

I guess all those books I read were wrong about those entire Chapters on listening fatigue.

Sorry man.

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 24, 2015, 11:37:07 PM
Wow!

Ok...Well then its bullshit.

sorry for ever having an opinion.

It's a valid opinion. I just haven't experienced the fatigue. And I'm listening to YouTube on headphones, for hours every morning. I just think my hearing is shot, no offense to your brother.
Go run a backhoe for six hours a day. Even with earplugs, you'd be begging to hear digital music instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listener_fatigue

Im out.

But please do not put words in my mouth!

I am NOT NOR DID I EVER SAY that I was convinced digital sucks.

Sorry but I never said that anywhere EVER! But you are free to Jump to those conclusions if you must to call me out on it.

Some thread huh?   :|

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 24, 2015, 11:47:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listener_fatigue

Im out.

But please do not put words in my mouth!

I am NOT NOR DID I EVER SAY that I was convinced digital sucks.

Sorry but I never said that anywhere EVER! But you are free to Jump to those conclusions if you must to call me out on it.

The very first paragraph of your backing proof is pretty uh, proofless....
I took the liberty of pointing out some of the important parts, after all it is Wikipedia.
"Listener fatigue (also known as listening fatigue) is a phenomenon that occurs after prolonged exposure to an auditory stimulus. Symptoms include tiredness, discomfort, pain, and loss of sensitivity. Listener fatigue is not a clinically recognized state, but is a term used by many professionals. The cause for listener fatigue is still not yet fully understood. It is thought to be an extension of the quantifiable psychological perception of sound. Common groups at risk of becoming victim to this phenomenon include avid listeners of music and others who listen or work with loud noise on a constant basis, such as musicians, construction workers and military"

I didn't read the rest of the entry because I'm pretty sure it's just full of more speculation than evidence.

ALSO I DIDN'T PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. IT'S CALLED INSINUATING AND THE WAY YOU TALK ABOUT DIGITAL VS ANALOG WOULD LEAD ANY PERSON WITH A MONKEY BRAIN TO INSINUATE YOUR FEELINGS ON THE MATTER AT HAND.

Quote from: meezer on March 25, 2015, 12:17:26 AM
Some thread huh?   :|

I get listeners fatigue when I listen to records and cassettes. To much movement involved. Flipping albums and cassettes is a real work out!

Thanks for clearing that up in such a way.

do you still want to do that collab track with me, I wont send it on a tape I guess.  :?


for the record Ive had listener fatigue during my own solo project recording, and mixing and it was all on tape. you are correct that tape Does cause as much listening fatigue as DAT can, and will, its Just Apples and oranges basically.

I started to have auditory Sensory hallucinations of Analog Synth sounds while trying to shower, the water started to sound like an Arp Odyssey MKII.
My monkey brain hurt and my mind was mush.

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 26, 2015, 09:07:51 PM
Thanks for clearing that up in such a way.

do you still want to do that collab track with me, I wont send it on a tape I guess.  :?


for the record Ive had listener fatigue during my own solo project recording, and mixing and it was all on tape. you are correct that tape Does cause as much listening fatigue as DAT can, and will, its Just Apples and oranges basically.

I started to have auditory Sensory hallucinations of Analog Synth sounds while trying to shower, the water started to sound like an Arp Odyssey MKII.
My monkey brain hurt and my mind was mush.

Tape is fine. Analog is fine with me. I too for the record would get listener fatigue while mixing as well (analog and digital). I can't listen to music with headphones for very long at all or I lose it these days. You're right though, it really is apples and oranges. I know it exists but clearly from several sources and reasons. I'm sure anybody who listens to things repeatedly (like mixing) will experience it. I just don't think it's something that can be blamed from a certain source. It's just literally our ears get tired. I don't buy into the analog vs digital debate. Sure maybe 20 years ago, maybe but I don't think it can be blamed for being caused by a certain type of media.
I wasn't trying to single you out or intentionally make you feel bad. I just disagreed with you and I happen to disagree with a lot of people. I think 90% of what comes out of peoples mouths is bullshit, including mine. When I hear it, I call it and I would hope others would call me on it too. I have plenty of opinions that could be considered bullshit by others.

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 27, 2015, 07:59:28 AM

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 26, 2015, 09:07:51 PM
Thanks for clearing that up in such a way.

do you still want to do that collab track with me, I wont send it on a tape I guess.  :?


for the record Ive had listener fatigue during my own solo project recording, and mixing and it was all on tape. you are correct that tape Does cause as much listening fatigue as DAT can, and will, its Just Apples and oranges basically.

I started to have auditory Sensory hallucinations of Analog Synth sounds while trying to shower, the water started to sound like an Arp Odyssey MKII.
My monkey brain hurt and my mind was mush.

Tape is fine. Analog is fine with me. I too for the record would get listener fatigue while mixing as well (analog and digital). I can't listen to music with headphones for very long at all or I lose it these days. You're right though, it really is apples and oranges. I know it exists but clearly from several sources and reasons. I'm sure anybody who listens to things repeatedly (like mixing) will experience it. I just don't think it's something that can be blamed from a certain source. It's just literally our ears get tired. I don't buy into the analog vs digital debate. Sure maybe 20 years ago, maybe but I don't think it can be blamed for being caused by a certain type of media.
I wasn't trying to single you out or intentionally make you feel bad. I just disagreed with you and I happen to disagree with a lot of people. I think 90% of what comes out of peoples mouths is bullshit, including mine. When I hear it, I call it and I would hope others would call me on it too. I have plenty of opinions that could be considered bullshit by others.

I have been thinking this over for several days now and wonder if you have an 8-track Player.

You might consider the way Analog Distorts in your speakers as they break up at loud volumes as being more *sweet* than the way digital Starts to distort when at high volume...its not as pleasant sounding as speaker distortion resulting from analog Recording on tape or LP for sure.

talking about actual *speaker* distortion here.

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 31, 2015, 01:54:09 PM

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 27, 2015, 07:59:28 AM

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 26, 2015, 09:07:51 PM
Thanks for clearing that up in such a way.

do you still want to do that collab track with me, I wont send it on a tape I guess.  :?


for the record Ive had listener fatigue during my own solo project recording, and mixing and it was all on tape. you are correct that tape Does cause as much listening fatigue as DAT can, and will, its Just Apples and oranges basically.

I started to have auditory Sensory hallucinations of Analog Synth sounds while trying to shower, the water started to sound like an Arp Odyssey MKII.
My monkey brain hurt and my mind was mush.

Tape is fine. Analog is fine with me. I too for the record would get listener fatigue while mixing as well (analog and digital). I can't listen to music with headphones for very long at all or I lose it these days. You're right though, it really is apples and oranges. I know it exists but clearly from several sources and reasons. I'm sure anybody who listens to things repeatedly (like mixing) will experience it. I just don't think it's something that can be blamed from a certain source. It's just literally our ears get tired. I don't buy into the analog vs digital debate. Sure maybe 20 years ago, maybe but I don't think it can be blamed for being caused by a certain type of media.
I wasn't trying to single you out or intentionally make you feel bad. I just disagreed with you and I happen to disagree with a lot of people. I think 90% of what comes out of peoples mouths is bullshit, including mine. When I hear it, I call it and I would hope others would call me on it too. I have plenty of opinions that could be considered bullshit by others.

I have been thinking this over for several days now and wonder if you have an 8-track Player.

You might consider the way Analog Distorts in your speakers as they break up at loud volumes as being more *sweet* than the way digital Starts to distort when at high volume...its not as pleasant sounding as speaker distortion resulting from analog Recording on tape or LP for sure.

talking about actual *speaker* distortion here.

I unfortunately don't have any kind of tape player right now. I will say this though. I fucking HATE digital clipping. I'm not sure if that's actual speaker distortion but it's horrible. When I had a 4 track I really loved pushing into the red with tape. Never experienced clipping with that 4 track, more of an overall saturation. Does that even make sense? As far as speaker distortion, this is the first time I've heard of it and not thought "Oh God my fucking speakers are gonna blow!". So I'm curious as to what exactly you're referring to.
Back in the early oughts we (the "experimental" "noise" band I was in) bought into the mini disc thing. I remember we would be "jamming" and making some really great stuff, the whole time with smiles on our faces and giving each other that "Fuck Yeah" look only to listen to it clip the fuck out of those mini discs. We lost some really great stuff due to clipping. Or most of the time we would have the levels pretty low for some headroom and someone would hit key on the Arp Odyssey or the shitty Juno we had and the level would be way hot and CLIP, FUCK! We would have some great material and even just one clip would ruin it for all of us.
I do all my recording straight to my Mac Book Pro these days but when it comes to recording I would much rather have the signal touch tape somewhere in the process. I'd love to find a little two channel 1/4 reel to reel but those things aren't being thrown away or sold at garage sales these days. I haven't even looked because I just know some hipster fuck would sell it overpriced and probably nit even properly taken care of. Actually your probably a good person to ask where to acquire such thing.

When recording digitally at 24 bit, it's best to err with lower levels, lower than might seem reasonable.  24 bit gives a relative ocean of noise-free foot room, so there is no reason to go anywhere near 0.  Any rationalizing of levels near 0 dBfs to use all of the bits is misguided, harmful, and wrong. 

The metering and waveform displays on most daws and other digital recorders can also be misleading, which makes the user want to fill up the meter or make the picture on the screen bigger.

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 31, 2015, 07:48:53 PM

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 31, 2015, 01:54:09 PM

Quote from: Bro Hammer on March 27, 2015, 07:59:28 AM

Quote from: Dumpster D on March 26, 2015, 09:07:51 PM
Thanks for clearing that up in such a way.

do you still want to do that collab track with me, I wont send it on a tape I guess.  :?


for the record Ive had listener fatigue during my own solo project recording, and mixing and it was all on tape. you are correct that tape Does cause as much listening fatigue as DAT can, and will, its Just Apples and oranges basically.

I started to have auditory Sensory hallucinations of Analog Synth sounds while trying to shower, the water started to sound like an Arp Odyssey MKII.
My monkey brain hurt and my mind was mush.

Tape is fine. Analog is fine with me. I too for the record would get listener fatigue while mixing as well (analog and digital). I can't listen to music with headphones for very long at all or I lose it these days. You're right though, it really is apples and oranges. I know it exists but clearly from several sources and reasons. I'm sure anybody who listens to things repeatedly (like mixing) will experience it. I just don't think it's something that can be blamed from a certain source. It's just literally our ears get tired. I don't buy into the analog vs digital debate. Sure maybe 20 years ago, maybe but I don't think it can be blamed for being caused by a certain type of media.
I wasn't trying to single you out or intentionally make you feel bad. I just disagreed with you and I happen to disagree with a lot of people. I think 90% of what comes out of peoples mouths is bullshit, including mine. When I hear it, I call it and I would hope others would call me on it too. I have plenty of opinions that could be considered bullshit by others.

I have been thinking this over for several days now and wonder if you have an 8-track Player.

You might consider the way Analog Distorts in your speakers as they break up at loud volumes as being more *sweet* than the way digital Starts to distort when at high volume...its not as pleasant sounding as speaker distortion resulting from analog Recording on tape or LP for sure.

talking about actual *speaker* distortion here.

I unfortunately don't have any kind of tape player right now. I will say this though. I fucking HATE digital clipping. I'm not sure if that's actual speaker distortion but it's horrible. When I had a 4 track I really loved pushing into the red with tape. Never experienced clipping with that 4 track, more of an overall saturation. Does that even make sense? As far as speaker distortion, this is the first time I've heard of it and not thought "Oh God my fucking speakers are gonna blow!". So I'm curious as to what exactly you're referring to.
Back in the early oughts we (the "experimental" "noise" band I was in) bought into the mini disc thing. I remember we would be "jamming" and making some really great stuff, the whole time with smiles on our faces and giving each other that "Fuck Yeah" look only to listen to it clip the fuck out of those mini discs. We lost some really great stuff due to clipping. Or most of the time we would have the levels pretty low for some headroom and someone would hit key on the Arp Odyssey or the shitty Juno we had and the level would be way hot and CLIP, FUCK! We would have some great material and even just one clip would ruin it for all of us.
I do all my recording straight to my Mac Book Pro these days but when it comes to recording I would much rather have the signal touch tape somewhere in the process. I'd love to find a little two channel 1/4 reel to reel but those things aren't being thrown away or sold at garage sales these days. I haven't even looked because I just know some hipster fuck would sell it overpriced and probably nit even properly taken care of. Actually your probably a good person to ask where to acquire such thing.

Also not to mention how To restore a 40+ year old garage sale tape player.

Unless you have hundreds of Dollars to throw at that kind of project its not the best idea. Take it from me.

is loud mang.  :D

I'm looking forward to May 04, 2024 when this poll ends :D Lets hope we're all still alive and a nuclear war doesn't break out!

Quote from: Sludgebaby on August 21, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
I'm looking forward to May 04, 2024 when this poll ends :D Lets hope we're all still alive and a nuclear war doesn't break out!

:lol:
I hope it would be exactly like this.

Omega IV - a planet featured in the episode "The Omega Glory" (TOS). It is discovered that the planet developed along similar historical lines as Earth where two "superpower" nations arose, the Khoms and the Yangs, and fought a cold war that ended in the near destruction of all inhabitants.

http://youtu.be/rtdcFuIoAhI (http://youtu.be/rtdcFuIoAhI)